Cautèle
Awareness through movementembodied awareness
& creative growth
01
“Creativity & Presence — with Inès Weill-Rochant” — 03/26
Welcome to Creativity&. Creativity& is a podcast channel that explores creativity in relation to other things: mental health, the body, politics, work, love, society. My name is Côme Ledésert, I am the founder of Cautèle, and this podcast is an extension of my systemic coaching work around creativity and mental health. And it's a rather special episode because it's the very first one. Each episode starts with a theme, today Creativity & Presence, through interpretation and acting, and takes the form of a conversation. To kick off this series, I couldn't imagine anyone better than Inès Weill-Rochant. Hello, Inès.
Inès
Hello, Côme.
Côme
We've known each other for a long time, we studied together at Sciences Po, before each branching off in our own way toward creative paths. Since then, we have regularly exchanged our views on society, drawing on our dual perspectives in political science and the arts, which continue to shape our discussions. Inès, you are an actress and screenwriter. You grew up in Jerusalem. You work in theater, film, and writing in France and internationally and today you are developing several highly committed artistic projects. We'll find out about your background as we talk anyway. The idea today is simple. Inès will first ask me questions. which we prepared together based on her experience then we'll let the conversation become a dialogue.
Inès
My question, Côme, concerns presence, presence as an actress, on stage or in front of the camera. So my question is, how can I be truly present, without being distracted by your mind, stress, and how do you think that affects creativity and mental health?
Côme
So what you're describing is often perceived as very specific to actors, to artists, but in reality the question of presence has become crucial for a great many people, far beyond the artistic realm. Since the advent of social media, we are no longer just consumers of images, we have also become producers of images, and very often of our own image. And that has profoundly changed our relationship with ourselves. We watch ourselves do things, we anticipate the gaze of others, we think in terms of projection. Being present becomes complicated when part of us is constantly asking themselves, "How am I perceived?" Added to this is the the increasing complexity and diversification of tasks at work and the way in which our modes of entertainment has changed, particularly on social media, with a focus on attention, short rather than long. The question of the "here and now" has become something of a collective obsession and also a major mental health issue, especially since Covid. During this period, many people were forced into isolation and introversion, often without access to to the usual care, and many have attempted to self-medicate via meditation apps without necessarily having any prior meditative experience. Very quickly, this created a form of societal diktat, meaning here and now and nothing else. Whereas in meditative, philosophical, or existential traditios, the here and now has never had a single definition nor a single way of being experienced. In your specific case, Inès, what I find very enlightening is that It's the distinction between two stages. The preparation stage, where the mind is extremely useful: learning the script, understanding the character, working on the staging, preparing mentally and physically, and the execution time. In this case, it is often preferable for the mind to withdraw, but of course without making it a diktat. In psychology, what we call the mind, here, they are mainly meta-thoughts. Thoughts that comment on the action. Am I doing the right thing? Am I credible? Am I up to the task? And they ask us to watch instead of just take action. And many traditions have been exploring this for centuries, how to interact or not interact with these thoughts, and above all, how not to give them excessive authority. For me, creativity is not primarily an ideological stance, but a physiological state. The states you describe before going on stage are very similar to what we see in sport athletes or in any situation that the brain interprets as an exceptional performance. Going on stage, even when it's your job, remains something exceptional for the brain. Depending on your personality and experience, it will remind you of this with varying degrees of intensity, sometimes distracting your attention. Inès, when you contacted me about these pre-stage mental states, we used a breathing exercise called square breathing, which acts as a quick fix. Square breathing consists of four stages. For 4 seconds, you breathe in. Hold your breath for 4 seconds. For 4 seconds, you exhale. And for four seconds, you hold your breath. Would you like to tell us what happened at that moment? How did you experience it? And what has this technique brought you?
Inès
Absolutely, and thank you very much for sharing this technique which helps me on stage every day. Before learning this square breathing technique, I was breathing, because we already breathe, and I was trying to relax with a kind of meditation, but again, I don't know much about it, and I conjured up many images related to my character or the character's story. And in fact, it was very rational in the end, because I have it in my head. And telling myself: Listen, before going on stage, stop imagining, stop rethinking, You did that work; it's preliminary work. Now, you're behind the scenes, You don't have much time. And it's just like you say, a kind of quick fix, but very effective, which just allows you to get back to where you are, to be there, and to enable to be there when we come on stage and invoke everything again. I don't know if that's clear, but it's a way of simplifying things a little, like purifying oneself all at once, in 16 seconds, if I'm not bad at math. Yes, that's right. And to be purified in order to invoke all the complexity we worked on before.
Côme
Yes, and it's something we can do several times over several cycles. And it's something that has been used by the Navy SEALs, the U.S. military, in situations of extreme stress. So that's quite interesting to keep that in mind somewhere. It also allows me sometimes to, how to say, minimize the moment saying to myself, "Well, if the Navy SEALs needed it for an even more extreme situation, even more dangerous, I might be able to handle it with my stress and my presence at the moment with this exercise."
Inès
I didn't know that, you see, so it will help me to also invoke the calm and happiness of being here. I have another question, as I have many, but we can't ask them all here. So my second question concerns a feeling of guilt that I had, which I now have a little less of. About my psychological weaknesses, telling me that until I get better, that I won't solve all my problems, which I believe is impossible, well, anyway, that I couldn't be a good actress. So, do you think good mental health is a prerequisite for creativity?
Côme
It's a very broad question, but we'll try to answer it fairly quickly. There is a widespread misconception. It's the idea that you have to be well to create. And what is paradoxical is that there is still a fairly clear correlation between creativity and negative thoughts. That doesn't mean you have to suffer to create, but accepting the presence of difficult mental states is often a prerequisite. The real challenge, and this is extremely complex on a daily basis, is not to confuse identity with destruction. So-called tortured creativity is not a symptom; it is often an attempt by the brain to regulate itself in order to solve a problem. And in the context of art, this problem is very often existential. It's a kind of survival issue in the non-functional sense of the term, that is, not survival linked to our physiological needs to eat, drink, and breathe. And as a result, there is a kind of intensity that is felt, and it affects who we are, but more importantly, what we become, how we set ourselves in motion. And it is this question that completes the quick fix of square breathing in order to provide tools for the medium and long term. And that is exactly the work I offer with Cautèle. It is not about suppressing emotions that are considered negative, but accept their presence and see how they can become a creative force. And Inès, it seems to me that you had a rather invigorating and important experience during your trip to Poland. And would you be willing to talk about it a little, to tell us what you went through from that point of view? And how things can also play out over the long term?
Inès
Yes, the trip to Poland was very intense, that's for sure, but also enjoyable. So, I did it because, on the one hand, it's part of my history that I've repressed, since part of my family comes from Poland, and are therefore Polish Jews. And so, it's also part of the play I'm in and the character I'm playing. And I had a sort of revelation, or at least a need, which really came from the heart, before my premiere in October at the theater, to tell me, I have to go to Poland. I can no longer continue to embody this Jewish grandmother who was born in Poland. and then lived through World War II there, without knowing, without touching, without smelling Poland. I don't know, it was strange. So I went there for 48 hours, and I've already been able to see Poland, see places linked to the character's history, visit a museum dedicated to the history of Polish Jews, go to Treblinka, the camp that was covered up by the Nazis so that it no longer exists. I decided to go to that camp because the character I play, unfortunately, it passes, without dying. And it helped me. It's true that, since we were talking about fragility, it was a weakness, especially for me, to mourn the Holocaust. I had never cried over the Holocaust, even the opposite. And there, on stage, I had no choice. My director had told me "I want you to cry, I want you to be moved," since you're going to talk about it anyway. And strangely enough, anything that was somewhat rational or playing techniques, to imagine, Well, there's plenty to cry about. Well, there's nothing that has ever helped than to go in Poland and to be able to see, touch, Treblinka. I touched the grass where there was surely still, below that weed, there is certainly perhaps human remains, from the human dust. It's very powerful, but it strangely nourished me... drained me, nourished me, and allowed me to come back more ready to embody. We were talking about the long term; it's not the same preparation as square breathing, but it complements it.
Côme
Yes, it complements it, and there is also an existential dimension to what you are saying.
Inès
Yes, after that, it's true that it depends on the roles, of course, that we are offered, But there are roles like that which help us move forward in relation to our history. And that's very valuable. And for that, I will always be grateful to Ismaël Saïli, the playwright, the writer, the director, and he performs with me on stage. Because he made me reconnect with this story that I had been repressing. So it's true that suddenly, it's very interesting, because you are progressing in your art, but you're also making progress on your taboos, you have certain concerns that you have in psychology, and transgenerational psychology. So yes, it's very existential.
Côme
And you also spoke to me during our preliminary discussions something that struck me about your work as an actress. You told me the more solid the groundwork is, the more free I am in the moment.
Inès
Yes, because It still bothers me. even though I have now accepted it but I think that the stress that we have and sometimes simply the urge to runn away that I had I was thinking about stand-up comedy, for example. because I was doing stand-up comedy I've put it aside for a while just wanting to share a little the feeling of the week or the same day and so I couldn't see how we could memorize jokes and redo them for a year when in fact, you haven't experienced the breakup you're talking about at all or I don't know, the day you were in a bad mood. And actually, I first realized this with stand-up comedy. that you can't improvise if you haven't already learned well beforehand and you don't have jokes or extremely solid material. Then, of course, improvise a little. And in theater, it may be less obvious because theater, whatever you do, you have to learn your lines. But when it comes to movements, gaze, and placement, That too must be very precise. And I'm just beginning to break free. I've been performing in the play Jerusalem for a year and a half. And actually, I thought that after four months it would be fine. I had played it maybe 10 times. the first few times we played it in Liège After I went to Avignon, I performed it 18 times. But that was just the beginning, it was nothing and that's when I think I played it perhaps 50 or 60 times and I'm starting to be really good and take up space on stage and my director tells me that he's very happy. But a year and a half nonetheless.
Côme
Yes, it's a long time. And I also think it raises the question of the creative process, because it is described often as bubbling, compared to a more structured approach. It's true that the question to set a framework as condition of freedom in the creation, many know in theory, but in practice, often we become rigid or, conversely, we reject the framework. For example, I tend to see the frame as a constraint. I would like to know, do you think this framework gives you structure in your daily life or is it something that bothers you?
Inès
Before, it bothered me and scared me. But as I understood that it was also, I think, an escape so as not to produce and present something, or at least present in a diffuse manner. And here, I would say that I'm still on the team framework, It's surprising to say, but I'm on the team framework. And you know, I was surprised the other day, I did a very intense performance with a friend who is Iranian, she is French-Iranian, and we've been doing this performance for two years now, twice a year so it is not a regular occurrence. So, this performance is very interesting. because it is living calligraphy, So she's a calligrapher, and she does calligraphy with my hair. And I dance. Anyway, it's very... It mixes lots of different art forms. And I was annoying. I wanted to... Now, I want us to prepare for the performance. I want to know what move I'm going to make. And she, much less so. And strangely, I ask my friend Saena to know what I'm going to do. And she wants... Finally, I don't think that's how it works. It's not working with performance either. which is very intense in relation to current events. But I realize that I now need this framework. Otherwise, I get too stressed and I'm not proud of what I do.
Côme
So in a way, it's something that has developed over time, if I understand correctly, this need for structure.
Inès
Yes, completely. And above all, by being proud of myself. That is to say, I see that when I have a framework, when I know what I'm going to give, I am much prouder of myself and better able to look at myself. It's very hard to watch yourself, whether it's a recording or not. But really, whether it's stand-up, performance, or theater, once I had my framework, I was much more proud of my performance.
Côme
So, there is theater, where structure is inevitable. And then there is performance, where, of course, the notion of improvisation plays a much greater role. And it's true that for me, improvisation doesn't mean a lack of structure. Often, the framework for improvisation is implicit, in fact. and it is without clearly stated enabling constraints. It is very easy to fall into unconscious patterns of repetition, exactly the opposite of what we are looking for in terms of creativity. And a large part of my doctoral research focused on the concept of fabulation in Deleuze, a space where the framework is not explicitly stated, but where a protocol of enabling constraints enables continuous and spontaneous transformation. And at that moment, the frame is something malleable, moving, living, and flexible. And I was wondering, Inès, in your work as an actress, this improvisation phase, it exists, but I imagine that, as a result, it's not the core of your work.
So in a way, it's something that has developed over time, if I understand correctly, this need for structure.
Inès
Yes, completely. And above all, by being proud of myself. That is to say, I see that when I have a framework, when I know what I'm going to give, I am much prouder of myself and better able to look at myself. It's very hard to watch yourself, whether it's a recording or not. But really, whether it's stand-up, performance, or theater, once I had my framework, I was much more proud of my performance.
Côme
So, there is theater, where structure is inevitable. And then there is performance, where, of course, the notion of improvisation plays a much greater role. And it's true that for me, improvisation doesn't mean a lack of structure. Often, the framework for improvisation is implicit, in fact. and it is without clearly stated enabling constraints. It is very easy to fall into unconscious patterns of repetition, exactly the opposite of what we are looking for in terms of creativity. And a large part of my doctoral research focused on the concept of fabulation in Deleuze, a space where the framework is not explicitly stated, but where a protocol of enabling constraints enables continuous and spontaneous transformation. And at that moment, the frame is something malleable, moving, living, and flexible. And I was wondering, Inès, in your work as an actress, this improvisation phase, it exists, but I imagine that, as a result, it's not the core of your work.
Continued
Inès
No, it's not the core of my work. I am now beginning to invoke it and allow me to invoke it because, actually, I've been working on this play for a year and a half, Now the text has been digested. As they say, it's no longer in my head, it's in my gut. The text comes out in its own way. I notice that when I'm getting ready, I recite it on the street or while reading something. Now that I know the text well, now that I know the movements, I can really afford to take up space on stage, as Ismael told me, by the way. And I see that it's a little... It's a close call, but I play a grandmother. Actually, I'm possessed. This is the story of a young woman who is possessed by her grandmother. A young Jewish woman, and opposite her, a Palestinian man who will also be possessed by his grandfather because there is an eclipse. So, in fact, we spend 1 hour and 20 minutes on stage to sometimes contort oneself because in a matter of seconds you become a grandparent. So that's quite something. Before feeling truly comfortable, I think I was doing it a bit mechanically. And then they tell me now that it's very subtle, that I'm playing more and more with a state of possession. It's never exactly the same. I know I have to sit down at some point, standing up at one point. Of course it's important because that's how it is. But while, for example, Ismael plays the character and there is a long monologue. Meanwhile, I'm sitting on a chair. And don't think that when we don't speak, one should not perform. That'd be the worse for an actor. When you're on stage, you're on stage. And now, I realize that before, I was watching him more than anything else. I was there, but I was watching him, smiling or reacting. But now, suddenly, out of nowhere, the grandmother comes back into me, then I become the youngest again. And that's a bit of improvisation, but I allow myself to because the rest is securely fixed.
Côme
Yes, I understand. And this strategy of preparing in advance, I think, allows for a triptych which is that you have security, so greater availability, so there is more room for creativity. and that is undoubtedly the most appropriate strategy at a steady pace where everything is rhythmic, with external constraints, and that helps to calm the mind, not only in the short term, but also in the medium term. And in any case, from a mental health perspective, The feeling of security acts almost like a medicine. And furthermore, in a context of more total improvisation, Letting go can be very liberating in the long run. But it's true that just before going on stage, It can be quite unsettling. And I think where it gets really interesting too, is that what you're describing, Inès, it's not just artistic. Besides, you're not just an actress or performer. I think you are someone who is deeply creative in the broadest sense. You are politically active. How does acting interact with your other commitments? With the way you position yourself in society and your life?
Inès
Ah, that's a broad topic. But it's my life, after all. First of all, I have to say that I think I became an actress late in life. But just so you know, anything is possible when you want something. I became an actress, let's say, with a leading role, and also as a freelancer, to be able to make a living from my acting career at the age of 35. Before that, I studied political science with you, Côme, and I was already... I loved art, and I've been doing it since I was little. After Sciences Po, I organized an Israeli-Palestinian festival where I was the programmer, but I wasn't on stage. Then a comic book, so there I got a little closer to art. Because I was a screenwriter, but still not on stage. I say that because, for me, the stage is really my favorite place. Since I was a little girl. It's strange to think about, I don't know why, I didn't dive into acting at 18, but what can you do? But that's good because, in fact, with Sciences Po, with having grown up in Jerusalem, with the fact that my parents were quite committed, and my comic book, and then there you go, all these projects related to, let's say, cultural engineering. I haven't found any other words for now, but that's kind of the word. Well, I... Let's just say that I've still built myself up as an artivist. And it works, it works, because without seeming to, the project I have there, Jerusalem, I got this role because I had interviewed Ismael and he remembered me. that he offered me this play, which is a play that deals with current issues. And he's someone who talks about current events in his plays, anyway, without necessarily seeking it, because he always writes the plays before actual events happen. It's crazy. So, I admit, it's not easy. It's still a big challenge to figure out where you stand. I was talking about it with ChatGPT, which isn't good, But I was talking about it with ChatGPT, I admit. It's best to talk to Côme about it, I'm telling you. Really, talk to Côme about it. What should I do? Yesterday, I literally asked them: Actually, I have my energy, it's been tense since January. The news makes me nervous and sad. I go through too many phases. and I don't know how to change that. How do I post it on social media? Do I make reels? Do I do anything? Am I writing a play? Am I writing a one-man show? Am I making a short film? I'm not yet where I want to be because I'm not in the film industry. Is it... They told me something interesting, But that's not right again because it's Chat GPT. But I had told myself that, it is in fact, What should we do? Do we really have to share everything on social media? When it's deep pain like that, these questions? Not necessarily. But actually, I don't know. Honestly, frankly, I'm having too much trouble here. I think I set the bar high because people often say to me, "Inès, just relax. Already, your play, Jerusalem, brings a lot to people and to you." And it's true, when you go to play in front of 400 middle school students in a tiny town in France where sometimes, it's people who have never been to the theater before, and afterwards, they have eyes full of wonder, full of questions, you can see that they've been taught something. Actually, it's great. And I think that with social media, we forget to celebrate small victories. And that's a shame. And so maybe that's why I don't know anymore. I don't know.
Côme
And that's interesting. I think that what you're saying is quite wonderful, to be able to share this experience. And in fact, this practice of being present somewhere. Because being an actor or actress also means being present on stage, this presence in relation to others. And indeed, it shifts away completely from the virtuality of social networks and how we present ourselves online. Then, what you've said about that period of your life since January, I feel like it's a kind of a bubbling up phase. and that it might just be a phase which is more related to improvisation and perhaps also a desire and a need to improvise than getting into a structured routine. I think these are constant cycles in humans, but especially among artists.
Inès
Yes. Besides, it's not pleasant. But it's true that the moments when it's not pleasant, in general, it can lead to an idea, to something concrete, a project. But it's true that it's quite unpleasant, that kind of period when it is bubbling, where you're not quite sure what to do. And I think that's where coaching, incidentally, can really help, or actually someone outside of yourself who can remind you that you've done things already, you do things and that it's okay if, right now, you're not sure what you're going to produce and I think that's where the outsider can really, really help because, in fact, by constantly being alone in your head, alone with social media, alone with a thousand people you can compare yourself to then you're going completely crazy.
Côme
It's true that this intense use of social media always blows our minds. and it is also very difficult to have a moderate relationship with their consumption and use. Because it has become both a professional and social place for friendships; everything is mixed together, in fact. And so, emotionally speaking, we are very, very attached to our phones and social media. And as you say, it allows us to compare ourselves to our peers, to think about who does what, and compare ourselves with them, often in a downward negative spiral. But what I find interesting is that you say that it's not easy to be in this period of bubbling and it's also because there is a very clear correlation between creativity and negative emotions. That's something that's becoming more and more commonly established, scientifically speaking. I'm really only talking about creativity. and therefore the ability to invent, when we must in fact open up a field of possibilities that goes beyond the structure, which breaks away from order, which breaks away with everything that reassures us, everything that cocoon us. So it's true that it's very complicated in today's world, where automation is taking over, to open up that space because there's a feeling of loneliness. I think that's also part of it, that... How do you socialize in those moments? So I was wondering, is that something that comes to your mind in those moments, to go against your intuition and socialize, or are you more inclined to withdraw?
Inès
I rather, well, it depends on the phases, but right now, I would say that I am no longer in a state of withdrawal, because I reject many things, I also want a little bit of, it's true, well, those are really things that don't go together, but I want to protect myself. Also, I live in Paris, and there are many requests, there are many... That's great, by the way, you can go to the theater every evening, you can go to the movies, you can go to 15 exhibitions, it's huge, you have your friends and I think it's hard when you're an artist to say to yourself, okay, there are times when you have to withdraw from all this. You have to be in your creativity. So that's complicated, plus social networks So now I think I'm withdrawing. And what you were saying about the fact when you create, it also goes a little bit with negativity or at least a feeling of negativity or something unpleasant, or at least go digging in dark sides of yourself or areas that have not been explored yet. That's very true, I think, and that's also where things can come out that can benefit people other than oneself. But it's not fashionable. That is to say, you see, I foolishly thought about books published by influencers. What's fashionable right now is positivity. good vibes attracts good vibes. And the other day, it bothered me too. I said to myself, wait, Inès, actually, if you're positive, if you show good vibes on social media, you'll attract good vibes. So, that's not wrong. I have experienced it. Simple things, but in the subway, often, I have trouble with controllers. I have difficulty with control. But the other day, I was very nice with them. They were very nice to me. Everything went well. Things like that, where it's not wrong that when you're still in good vibes, you get good vibes back. Is it possible to be in a good mood all the time? Isn't that also contrary to the nature of mammals? where sometimes, we protect ourselves and we are a little negative? I don't know, Côme. But maybe a coach can help us with that.
Côme
in any case, I think we can make a difference on two things in relation to what you say It's very interesting, and I think it's a bit of an optical illusion we fall for as a human being even if we are aware of it and we know it but there is a difference between the content of our thoughts and the attitude we have towards them and so we can have negative thoughts and have an affirmative attitude. I wouldn't say positive because it has connotations and, above all, it doesn't correspond to reality, it is more of a form of affirmation. Somehow, a form of self-esteem which brings us to think beyond the content of our thoughts, whether positive or negative. And I think you emphasize a phenomenon that is highly problematic in the recent democratization of mental health issues. On the one hand, there is something extraordinary about it, it's that we've been talking about mental health since Covid and it's liberating for a lot of people. On the other hand, we also discover that scientific literature was based on what is known as positive psychology and that it genuinely has its limitations. And more and more researchers are realizing this. And therefore everything related to behavioral therapy, or what is known as cognitive-behavioral therapy, they have questioned themselves quite a bit lately, it's quite interesting because their foundation were all about positive psychology. And little by little, they are, in fact, integrating existential elements, etc. To such an extent that, well, psychoanalysis, in a way, needs a little more time to integrate more pragmatic, simple approaches, more down-to-earth tools in the way they can help patients with their issues. And so, it's true that coaching is quite interesting because it's still a process that is solution-oriented and then it's a process, It's a real process. And we're looking for a solution. So it defines the problem and then there's a bit of everything in coaching, clearly, we come across a bit of everything. It's true that what I try to bring mainly, it is this existential dimension because, to me, it is open to the question of negative emotions, but as I say, beyond that, the attitude we have toward our negative emotions. So it's certain that we can't always feel smart, we can't have a certain kind of show off attitude towards our negative emotions, but we don't have to sink either in their twists and turns. And I think that's liberating, That's the most liberating thing in the medium to long term. It's complicated to implement in the short term, I won't lie. But if you work on it, you can work on your attitude.
Inès
It's something I've been trying out during this difficult period. because I felt that I had been generally very angry with society since January. Since then, really. And at the same time, I have never tried so hard, as you say, to accept our situation. It's not easy, but it's so important to say: "okay, okay, I'm annoyed." And once you accept that, it goes in a corner of your mind and when you go out on the street you face uncertainties whether it's someone who's going to breathe down your neck There are many of them. But it doesn't matter because you've kind of accepted it and so I'm really trying to turn it into something positive. But even simple things, even with my cat, instead of getting upset, don't get upset, stay calm, explain things. It bothers me because it's another way of doing things, and it's really a different way of operating but as you say, to be more assertive, but quite serene, honestly, it feels good. It feels really good.
Côme
That's true, it feels good. and it's a long-term job. In any case, this first episode of Creativity& asks more questions than it provides answers and well, that's kind of the point too. And I know that with you, Inès, we can ask lots of questions, so it was a great pleasure to have you with us today. And I'd like to finish the podcast by sharing some accomplishments you've made. You are passionate about crossing cultures and identities. You created Pélerinages en décalage at La Bellevilloise, an independent festival that brought together Israeli and Palestinian artists. It's a little crazy to say it today, but it did exist. And that's probably possible to bring it back to life. And above all, you co-wrote the comic book Une Nuit, which was published in 2022, and so you are currently playing Delphine and Ruth in the play you mentioned, Jerusalem, and you reprise one of the leading roles in Zébrures, la face cachée des HPIs by Anne-Sophie Nédélec. And finally, you are developing a documentary about your school in Jerusalem, and you will soon be playing Firdaous in Dernier Tour. That's all! Thank you, Inès, for being with us today. See you soon.
Inès
Thank you very much. See you soon.
No, it's not the core of my work. I am now beginning to invoke it and allow me to invoke it because, actually, I've been working on this play for a year and a half, Now the text has been digested. As they say, it's no longer in my head, it's in my gut. The text comes out in its own way. I notice that when I'm getting ready, I recite it on the street or while reading something. Now that I know the text well, now that I know the movements, I can really afford to take up space on stage, as Ismael told me, by the way. And I see that it's a little... It's a close call, but I play a grandmother. Actually, I'm possessed. This is the story of a young woman who is possessed by her grandmother. A young Jewish woman, and opposite her, a Palestinian man who will also be possessed by his grandfather because there is an eclipse. So, in fact, we spend 1 hour and 20 minutes on stage to sometimes contort oneself because in a matter of seconds you become a grandparent. So that's quite something. Before feeling truly comfortable, I think I was doing it a bit mechanically. And then they tell me now that it's very subtle, that I'm playing more and more with a state of possession. It's never exactly the same. I know I have to sit down at some point, standing up at one point. Of course it's important because that's how it is. But while, for example, Ismael plays the character and there is a long monologue. Meanwhile, I'm sitting on a chair. And don't think that when we don't speak, one should not perform. That'd be the worse for an actor. When you're on stage, you're on stage. And now, I realize that before, I was watching him more than anything else. I was there, but I was watching him, smiling or reacting. But now, suddenly, out of nowhere, the grandmother comes back into me, then I become the youngest again. And that's a bit of improvisation, but I allow myself to because the rest is securely fixed.
Côme
Yes, I understand. And this strategy of preparing in advance, I think, allows for a triptych which is that you have security, so greater availability, so there is more room for creativity. and that is undoubtedly the most appropriate strategy at a steady pace where everything is rhythmic, with external constraints, and that helps to calm the mind, not only in the short term, but also in the medium term. And in any case, from a mental health perspective, The feeling of security acts almost like a medicine. And furthermore, in a context of more total improvisation, Letting go can be very liberating in the long run. But it's true that just before going on stage, It can be quite unsettling. And I think where it gets really interesting too, is that what you're describing, Inès, it's not just artistic. Besides, you're not just an actress or performer. I think you are someone who is deeply creative in the broadest sense. You are politically active. How does acting interact with your other commitments? With the way you position yourself in society and your life?
Inès
Ah, that's a broad topic. But it's my life, after all. First of all, I have to say that I think I became an actress late in life. But just so you know, anything is possible when you want something. I became an actress, let's say, with a leading role, and also as a freelancer, to be able to make a living from my acting career at the age of 35. Before that, I studied political science with you, Côme, and I was already... I loved art, and I've been doing it since I was little. After Sciences Po, I organized an Israeli-Palestinian festival where I was the programmer, but I wasn't on stage. Then a comic book, so there I got a little closer to art. Because I was a screenwriter, but still not on stage. I say that because, for me, the stage is really my favorite place. Since I was a little girl. It's strange to think about, I don't know why, I didn't dive into acting at 18, but what can you do? But that's good because, in fact, with Sciences Po, with having grown up in Jerusalem, with the fact that my parents were quite committed, and my comic book, and then there you go, all these projects related to, let's say, cultural engineering. I haven't found any other words for now, but that's kind of the word. Well, I... Let's just say that I've still built myself up as an artivist. And it works, it works, because without seeming to, the project I have there, Jerusalem, I got this role because I had interviewed Ismael and he remembered me. that he offered me this play, which is a play that deals with current issues. And he's someone who talks about current events in his plays, anyway, without necessarily seeking it, because he always writes the plays before actual events happen. It's crazy. So, I admit, it's not easy. It's still a big challenge to figure out where you stand. I was talking about it with ChatGPT, which isn't good, But I was talking about it with ChatGPT, I admit. It's best to talk to Côme about it, I'm telling you. Really, talk to Côme about it. What should I do? Yesterday, I literally asked them: Actually, I have my energy, it's been tense since January. The news makes me nervous and sad. I go through too many phases. and I don't know how to change that. How do I post it on social media? Do I make reels? Do I do anything? Am I writing a play? Am I writing a one-man show? Am I making a short film? I'm not yet where I want to be because I'm not in the film industry. Is it... They told me something interesting, But that's not right again because it's Chat GPT. But I had told myself that, it is in fact, What should we do? Do we really have to share everything on social media? When it's deep pain like that, these questions? Not necessarily. But actually, I don't know. Honestly, frankly, I'm having too much trouble here. I think I set the bar high because people often say to me, "Inès, just relax. Already, your play, Jerusalem, brings a lot to people and to you." And it's true, when you go to play in front of 400 middle school students in a tiny town in France where sometimes, it's people who have never been to the theater before, and afterwards, they have eyes full of wonder, full of questions, you can see that they've been taught something. Actually, it's great. And I think that with social media, we forget to celebrate small victories. And that's a shame. And so maybe that's why I don't know anymore. I don't know.
Côme
And that's interesting. I think that what you're saying is quite wonderful, to be able to share this experience. And in fact, this practice of being present somewhere. Because being an actor or actress also means being present on stage, this presence in relation to others. And indeed, it shifts away completely from the virtuality of social networks and how we present ourselves online. Then, what you've said about that period of your life since January, I feel like it's a kind of a bubbling up phase. and that it might just be a phase which is more related to improvisation and perhaps also a desire and a need to improvise than getting into a structured routine. I think these are constant cycles in humans, but especially among artists.
Inès
Yes. Besides, it's not pleasant. But it's true that the moments when it's not pleasant, in general, it can lead to an idea, to something concrete, a project. But it's true that it's quite unpleasant, that kind of period when it is bubbling, where you're not quite sure what to do. And I think that's where coaching, incidentally, can really help, or actually someone outside of yourself who can remind you that you've done things already, you do things and that it's okay if, right now, you're not sure what you're going to produce and I think that's where the outsider can really, really help because, in fact, by constantly being alone in your head, alone with social media, alone with a thousand people you can compare yourself to then you're going completely crazy.
Côme
It's true that this intense use of social media always blows our minds. and it is also very difficult to have a moderate relationship with their consumption and use. Because it has become both a professional and social place for friendships; everything is mixed together, in fact. And so, emotionally speaking, we are very, very attached to our phones and social media. And as you say, it allows us to compare ourselves to our peers, to think about who does what, and compare ourselves with them, often in a downward negative spiral. But what I find interesting is that you say that it's not easy to be in this period of bubbling and it's also because there is a very clear correlation between creativity and negative emotions. That's something that's becoming more and more commonly established, scientifically speaking. I'm really only talking about creativity. and therefore the ability to invent, when we must in fact open up a field of possibilities that goes beyond the structure, which breaks away from order, which breaks away with everything that reassures us, everything that cocoon us. So it's true that it's very complicated in today's world, where automation is taking over, to open up that space because there's a feeling of loneliness. I think that's also part of it, that... How do you socialize in those moments? So I was wondering, is that something that comes to your mind in those moments, to go against your intuition and socialize, or are you more inclined to withdraw?
Inès
I rather, well, it depends on the phases, but right now, I would say that I am no longer in a state of withdrawal, because I reject many things, I also want a little bit of, it's true, well, those are really things that don't go together, but I want to protect myself. Also, I live in Paris, and there are many requests, there are many... That's great, by the way, you can go to the theater every evening, you can go to the movies, you can go to 15 exhibitions, it's huge, you have your friends and I think it's hard when you're an artist to say to yourself, okay, there are times when you have to withdraw from all this. You have to be in your creativity. So that's complicated, plus social networks So now I think I'm withdrawing. And what you were saying about the fact when you create, it also goes a little bit with negativity or at least a feeling of negativity or something unpleasant, or at least go digging in dark sides of yourself or areas that have not been explored yet. That's very true, I think, and that's also where things can come out that can benefit people other than oneself. But it's not fashionable. That is to say, you see, I foolishly thought about books published by influencers. What's fashionable right now is positivity. good vibes attracts good vibes. And the other day, it bothered me too. I said to myself, wait, Inès, actually, if you're positive, if you show good vibes on social media, you'll attract good vibes. So, that's not wrong. I have experienced it. Simple things, but in the subway, often, I have trouble with controllers. I have difficulty with control. But the other day, I was very nice with them. They were very nice to me. Everything went well. Things like that, where it's not wrong that when you're still in good vibes, you get good vibes back. Is it possible to be in a good mood all the time? Isn't that also contrary to the nature of mammals? where sometimes, we protect ourselves and we are a little negative? I don't know, Côme. But maybe a coach can help us with that.
Côme
in any case, I think we can make a difference on two things in relation to what you say It's very interesting, and I think it's a bit of an optical illusion we fall for as a human being even if we are aware of it and we know it but there is a difference between the content of our thoughts and the attitude we have towards them and so we can have negative thoughts and have an affirmative attitude. I wouldn't say positive because it has connotations and, above all, it doesn't correspond to reality, it is more of a form of affirmation. Somehow, a form of self-esteem which brings us to think beyond the content of our thoughts, whether positive or negative. And I think you emphasize a phenomenon that is highly problematic in the recent democratization of mental health issues. On the one hand, there is something extraordinary about it, it's that we've been talking about mental health since Covid and it's liberating for a lot of people. On the other hand, we also discover that scientific literature was based on what is known as positive psychology and that it genuinely has its limitations. And more and more researchers are realizing this. And therefore everything related to behavioral therapy, or what is known as cognitive-behavioral therapy, they have questioned themselves quite a bit lately, it's quite interesting because their foundation were all about positive psychology. And little by little, they are, in fact, integrating existential elements, etc. To such an extent that, well, psychoanalysis, in a way, needs a little more time to integrate more pragmatic, simple approaches, more down-to-earth tools in the way they can help patients with their issues. And so, it's true that coaching is quite interesting because it's still a process that is solution-oriented and then it's a process, It's a real process. And we're looking for a solution. So it defines the problem and then there's a bit of everything in coaching, clearly, we come across a bit of everything. It's true that what I try to bring mainly, it is this existential dimension because, to me, it is open to the question of negative emotions, but as I say, beyond that, the attitude we have toward our negative emotions. So it's certain that we can't always feel smart, we can't have a certain kind of show off attitude towards our negative emotions, but we don't have to sink either in their twists and turns. And I think that's liberating, That's the most liberating thing in the medium to long term. It's complicated to implement in the short term, I won't lie. But if you work on it, you can work on your attitude.
Inès
It's something I've been trying out during this difficult period. because I felt that I had been generally very angry with society since January. Since then, really. And at the same time, I have never tried so hard, as you say, to accept our situation. It's not easy, but it's so important to say: "okay, okay, I'm annoyed." And once you accept that, it goes in a corner of your mind and when you go out on the street you face uncertainties whether it's someone who's going to breathe down your neck There are many of them. But it doesn't matter because you've kind of accepted it and so I'm really trying to turn it into something positive. But even simple things, even with my cat, instead of getting upset, don't get upset, stay calm, explain things. It bothers me because it's another way of doing things, and it's really a different way of operating but as you say, to be more assertive, but quite serene, honestly, it feels good. It feels really good.
Côme
That's true, it feels good. and it's a long-term job. In any case, this first episode of Creativity& asks more questions than it provides answers and well, that's kind of the point too. And I know that with you, Inès, we can ask lots of questions, so it was a great pleasure to have you with us today. And I'd like to finish the podcast by sharing some accomplishments you've made. You are passionate about crossing cultures and identities. You created Pélerinages en décalage at La Bellevilloise, an independent festival that brought together Israeli and Palestinian artists. It's a little crazy to say it today, but it did exist. And that's probably possible to bring it back to life. And above all, you co-wrote the comic book Une Nuit, which was published in 2022, and so you are currently playing Delphine and Ruth in the play you mentioned, Jerusalem, and you reprise one of the leading roles in Zébrures, la face cachée des HPIs by Anne-Sophie Nédélec. And finally, you are developing a documentary about your school in Jerusalem, and you will soon be playing Firdaous in Dernier Tour. That's all! Thank you, Inès, for being with us today. See you soon.
Inès
Thank you very much. See you soon.